This Colorado food writer came up with a novel way to monetize his content

Matthew Schniper has spent over 20 years covering the Colorado Springs food scene.

When Matthew Schniper launched his Colorado Springs food newsletter in 2023, he ran into a problem many local news entrepreneurs face: he didn’t have enough time to both do his reporting and chase down advertisers.

Luckily, by that point he already had strong relationships in the Colorado Springs food scene, and so he approached 12 of his favorite restaurants with an interesting proposition: if they came on as annual sponsors, he would go above and beyond to feature them in his newsletter, and he wouldn’t allow any other local businesses to advertise. This allowed him to focus on his reporting and not waste time on sales calls. The experiment was so successful that over half of the restaurants have already renewed for a second year.

In a recent interview, Matthew explained how he came up with the idea, what services he provides for these 12 restaurants, and why he thinks his model can be replicated by other local news startups.

You can watch the interview over here.

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Transcript

Hey, Matthew, thanks for joining us.

1:39

Thanks for having me, Simon. Really appreciate it.

1:41

Super excited to talk about this local newsletter you've run, but first I want to just talk about what led up to you launching it and what your career was before that. You actually have a background in media and local journalism. In fact, you spent most of your career working for a single newspaper in Colorado Springs.

2:02

What was the name of that newspaper?

2:04

Yeah, that was the Colorado Springs Independent. It was our local alt-weekly here. We are a sister city to Denver. They have the westward and some bigger papers. But we are the smaller, we're the second city in Colorado. And you're correct, I did spend my whole career there before launching my own thing afterwards.

2:21

Yeah, and you worked in the restaurant industry prior to working there?

2:24

I did. I did 10 years in the business. I started when I was in high school and carried a job through college. So when I applied for the indie position, I was able to come into the A&E department. But basically with that background of like, hey, you've got an opening in the food writing team.

2:41

I've been doing food. Why don't you let me do that? So that was a nice little segue so that I had some more industry background experience that became really valuable when It came to making relationships here and interviewing the chefs and the baristas and the bartenders and having more credibility than just someone who doesn't know

2:57

the industry on the inside.

2:58

Yeah. So like the restaurants who had worked when we're also in Colorado Springs.

3:02

Half of them were. I actually grew up in Birmingham, Alabama and started my restaurant career there at the age of 15. So that's where I did all my like low level, like busing and running and all the like grunt tasks. But when I got out here later and was in college,

3:18

I moved to like serving and then some front house management. I was a line cook for a while too. So I got a little bit of chops back in the kitchen, but never to a level of being able to call myself chef. So I don't do that.

3:28

And if someone tries to, I'm like, line cook through and through.

3:32

But you had like an appreciation for the industry that maybe even your average food critic doesn't have, you would probably say.

3:40

I think so. I mean, yeah, it was, it was like, I didn't want to leave it in a way. Like I love being around the industry still, which is like, whatever I've thought about, you know, if I didn't do this work, what would I do? Part of me has always thought about going back into the industry.

3:53

I think about those, just the relationships I've built and the networking and everything else. Like in terms of culture, they're my people. I mean, I know same with media people, like that's my other people, but I love the fusion between those two and like getting to run in those circles. I just, I,

4:10

i do love food and drink the topic i stay engaged with it i'm passionate about learning more all the time i love travel so that i can eat things in different places and drink things and to me like it is one of the when i go abroad i was just

4:21

in portugal a few months ago we spend so much time curating where we're going to eat and where we're going to stop just for food and drink um that becomes like a

4:28

huge focal point of the trip for us so yeah i was just in portugal and what the thing that we keep on saying is it was beautiful loved every part of it except like the food did not excite us at all

4:40

Oh, no. See, we did some pretty good research and found good stuff. I don't know if it's one of those could live here forever and eat, you know, happily. But I don't know if you encountered that salted cod, the bacalao, but that stuff was hard to palate. I did not like that.

4:55

Did you try that? I did try that, but I found actually most, other than that, obviously most of the food was a little under seasoned. And that was kind of my, and like my wife, like she's a foodie. She, you know, she did all her research for Lisbon, Porto.

5:08

We went to the Algarve coast and everything like that. And like, so we were going like to the best restaurants in every city, but everything just felt like under seasoned, except for one, one meal that I had, everything else just was kind of underwhelming.

5:22

I spent $600 to go to a Michelin restaurant just because I wanted to notch a Michelin visit. And that was what was underwhelming, and I was so disappointed. I was like, we could have eaten for the week everywhere else. And it had its moments,

5:35

but I kind of found out that the whole thing was just too much pageantry. Like, oh, let's lead you through the kitchen, and chef's going to give you a mousse-bouche and tell you a story, and then this, and then that. And it's like, if you stripped all the pageantry out, it just wasn't worth that much money.

5:49

our better meals were in those little small countryside places um and you know for me i did some you know international reporting in a way like i decided i wanted to come home and write a story about this for my readers even though it's not a place

6:02

that they can go and eat tomorrow maybe they want to go on vacation get inspired but um one of my and i'll just tell this one really quick but one of our One of my favorite food experiences from that trip was tied to history. And there was this group of crypto Jews in this little town called Belmonte.

6:20

So they had gone underground.

6:21

Crypto Jews.

6:22

Crypto Jews. So like hidden... culture like um they were practicing in secret for many many many years like decades and decades because they had to assimilate before that and pretend to be um catholic or christian or whatever and so they just took the the judaism underground

6:37

well in order to assimilate they made their own sausage that looked like like everyone had to have their own sausage like every town has a sausage so they made one with like It looked like pork, but it was something else. Exactly. It looked like pork. And they seasoned it with like, like paprika and some smoked stuff.

6:51

So like you couldn't quite get the flavor. Anyway, it survived. And so to this day, you can get, it's called a Lera. You can get a Lera on a menu as an appetizer. And most people probably don't know that story, but this is a story of like hiding in secrecy for decades. And now they're above ground.

7:06

There's actually a synagogue in that town now, but just a fascinating story that came out of like, if you know about this sausage reading, there's something behind this.

7:14

yeah and we'll get more into talking about you know what you're producing today with your newsletter and stuff like that so you started working for this alternative newspaper in 2004 you had never worked for you knew the restaurant industry but you hadn't was there like a learning curve or did you or was like

7:29

obviously like alternative media it's like slightly less like strict and it's in how it like you know applies the rules of journalism and stuff like that like did what was the kind of learning curve for that

7:41

Great question, yeah. So I do feel like I BS'd my way in just a little bit. I had a creative writing degree from college. I'd been doing the restaurant thing, but I really did not do journal. I didn't go to J school. I wasn't studying that. I kind of just said, well, hey, I can write.

7:54

I can do this. Let me put these two things together. I got my way in at the grunt level of doing listings and all of the annoying tasks. Half my week was full of data entry, which was miserable, but I kept trying to push toward like, hey, I could do this, guys, but I'm actually capable of this.

8:10

So I was trying to file some stories on the side and show my worth. But again, some people leaving above me left those vacancies where I was able to climb up the ladder fairly quickly. And I was doing arts reporting. I was doing a little bit of news, a little bit of film, a little bit of music.

8:25

But I did manage to hold down that food review desk and do the little food news stories and stuff. And again, that was just where my passion was. The other things I could do, I was capable. But it wasn't something I really would want to do for a whole career at all.

8:41

So there was a period of time, obviously, when alternative media was incredibly profitable, was even some ways more profitable than like the local newspaper. And I think like the tail end of that era was 2004 to 2007. So you were just coming in at the end of that.

8:56

What was it like after the recession in terms of what happened to that newspaper? Yeah.

9:01

Oh, yeah, it was tough because right as the listings started to decline and that whole era of money dried up, us being in Colorado, we had that unique ability where weed money came in and suddenly the medical marijuana was happening. And there was like this nice transition into ad revenue from that.

9:19

And so suddenly we had tons of dispensaries advertising and the whole back of the book was dispensaries, whereas in the earlier days it was listings. But I think there was also like the I want to say there was like what everyone just called the sex ads. Like there was some of those little escort type things and whatever,

9:34

which offended a huge portion of this town because it's a bit of a conservative county here in Colorado Springs. So it's funny because a lot of people were like, oh, you guys just went from sex to weed, like, you know, one vice to another or one sin item to another. And well, yeah, like, well, you know,

9:49

if the if there was some wholesome money out there to have been had, I'm sure we would have taken it. And I say we as in like the organization, obviously, I'm in the editorial, you know, sales department, you know, church and state. But I do know what paid the bills.

10:00

And a lot of that for many years was the the early boom of the weed industry, which I don't think it's as lucrative today now that there's so many states that have rec and medical and it's just not the same industry.

10:11

Tell us about Colorado Springs. How vibrant of a food city is it?

10:15

It's getting better every year, and I try to always find the positives and champion what we're doing right. I did a whole podcast series a few years ago on this and just wrote a five-episode script. I had about 15 different chefs and people on.

10:28

I've always been exploring what it would take to make us the next great food city. And we have like a little bit of the seed there. Like we just need to water it and make it grow. And it's hard because being so close to Denver where I think Denver might be underrated compared to Chicago, L.A., New York,

10:43

like the big cities like there is some amazing chefs there and some phenomenal food. But when I talk to people like food purveyors who are actually selling to the restaurants who see the other side of it, they were telling me, man, the Springs is like five or ten years behind Denver. Like you guys are

10:58

it's a trickle down like, you know, when we know I'm going to go back like 10 years, like when tapas came like, oh, they're they're on tapas five years before us. And then suddenly we have a couple of places open. They're like, hey, guys, have you ever heard of tapas? And you're like, yeah, I've heard of tapas.

11:11

But like we're like that kind of town where we had to introduce things really mindfully and try to educate people around it. Kind of like the early era of like craft beer, where everyone was trying to educate around like here's these, you know, wild, dank IPAs. And here's how you get these flavors.

11:25

And isn't this amazing coming to this incredibly, you know, smack you in the face beer from the era of like Miller Lite, you know? And so I feel like that's sort of the story of us, too, is like we're up and coming.

11:38

we have some things to celebrate but too often we hit middle and and also i also blame the populace i've often gone after the eater and said hey you know if you spend your money at this place that's who will survive if you don't spend your

11:51

money over here they will die well what happens is we get we're getting overrun by in and out and whataburger and every little fast food chain that's coming in and making not just one location but seven in like three years right in franchises and so i'm upset because we're a town that keeps rewarding franchise culture like

12:08

I want local independence to thrive. That's where culture is. You and I don't go to Portugal so we can eat at McDonald's there. I mean, yeah, it's funny to see the chandelier in the McDonald's in Porto. I don't know if you walked in there, but that's all I did.

12:19

I walked in to see the McDonald's that I'd heard about, and I'm not getting a burger. I don't need to know. So anyway.

12:26

Well, I just read a trend piece in the local news in D.C. that Tapas is on his way out in 2025, so you can look forward to that in 2030.

12:33

They're going to like, what's coming back around now, like Nordic food or something? I don't even know. What's the new trend?

12:40

Yeah, I think it's Mediterranean. So you worked at this newspaper and you became editor-in-chief eventually, right? Yeah.

12:50

I did. And, you know, honestly, it was a bit of a reluctant move where someone left. There was, again, a vacant seat. I was concerned about the outside hire and who would come in and fill that. At that point in time, the staff I was with, we had all been together about six, seven years.

13:06

We actually had a pretty long staying power. You know, like the Simpsons had the golden years where there were great writers. We had our golden years of the paper where there was a solid crew and everyone was really good at their desk. And I feel like that was the best time and the best time the paper was.

13:20

It was at its strongest, but we were carrying some of those members into that new era. And I was kind of concerned about hiring from the outside who would come in and try to manage and what they would do to disrupt all that. And so I was like, you know,

13:31

I may as well step up and try to put my hand up and say, I'll do it. One other staff member did as well. But I just... Look, I said, I don't know the news as well. I will hire this person as the news editor. I will empower and trust her to run that section.

13:46

I am capable of still line editing and copy editing and running the day-to-day and making sure there's something for the cover story and doing all the back-end logistics, the meetings, all that stuff. Do we have art for these stories? All that stuff. I didn't mind taking on the busy work of building out the paper every week and

14:01

being responsible for that. and then liaising with production side and sales department and everyone else. What was challenging was I wanted to be a writing editor. I did not want to just be an editor who only edited and didn't write. And I always feel like you have to keep writing. That's just maybe my own bent.

14:18

But the challenge I had was to keep up with my own food and drink section and make sure it was as robust as it ever was when I was just the food and drink writer with more time. And I think that's where I pushed myself into all those extra evening and weekend

14:31

hours was take care of everyone else first and take care of myself second and my beat second. So it was a struggle. I did it for three years before there was some more reshaping and the downsizing began. But I

14:46

I hate I didn't want the job I just took the job you know like I did it for other reasons but I never aimed for that desk I did not want that job and this is an era

14:55

when there was just like one company that was consolidating and buying up all the alternative newspapers what company was it was your company owned by that one

15:03

No, I know what you're talking about. I'm blanking on who that was. They came in and I think they bought the Denver paper too. Anyway.

15:11

It was like they owned the Village Voice. I don't know. Yeah, I forget what it was called.

15:16

I should know that name off the top of my head. I'm already forgetting. But we were owned by a local independent company. gentleman who lived here one guy he did try to when things were getting shifty he tried to buy up a couple other things in the market and create a bit of a media

15:32

company so he bought our local business journal away from whoever that was with at the time he also bought American business journals Yeah, I think so. And then there was like a local version of like a, some of the community newspapers, like the really small stuff. There's also the legal listing ones, right?

15:49

The ones where they have to place the evictions or whatever the court stuff in there. so he bought up a few other things and for a little while he tried to put all those things in house and so we ended up with some overlap of staffers who did 20 hours

16:01

here and 20 hours there and the more all that happened it just got really confusing and we always tried to be a little bit siloed and just be like hey well that's great but we're the indie we're going to do our thing we thought of ourselves as

16:11

the mothership like this is the one that was here these other things joined us but there's not a lot of connect culturally between that you know supposedly edgy alt weekly and then the business journal and especially like when you get into endorsements on one side and then like

16:26

political liaising on the other like you always had to be careful in house of like that conflict of interest and the perceptions and like sometimes the optics were bad even though we knew inside we were doing good work I always worried about like

16:37

the impression from the outside of like well yeah but you own this and you own this how do you act in these two ways and so you just have to like take it on transparently which I'll get to because that's part of my own story now

16:48

Yeah, and did he overextend himself? Is that the reason why the newspaper eventually failed? Was because maybe if he had stayed focused on just the alt-weekly that it might be still alive?

16:59

That's a great question. I wonder, I think it's been questioned. I don't necessarily think the others brought it down. In fact, there was a time where they flipped revenue models and the Business Journal was making more than the mothership all of a sudden.

17:10

And so there was a time where it's like we carried them, then they carried us. I wasn't involved enough at that level to know. And I think some of this was the inevitable decline that was just inescapable. Like no matter what you did, you could buy a little more time.

17:24

You could maybe do a little this, a little that. And we did, you know, suddenly you're shaving staff or you're cutting here or you're cutting there. I just think as we now see today, it's It did feel inevitable, like you knew where it was going and there was nothing to really stop it.

17:40

And I don't know how the ones that are still in the game right now are doing it. I don't know if it's just the size of a market like Denver. I always think Denver just because it's close by and I can get my head around it.

17:48

But like there's just that, you know, I think we're half a million ish. That's probably two million ish. So if you have four times the... X, Y, or Z, restaurants, businesses of any course, doctors, dentists, lawyers who could advertise. Four times the anything to pull from.

18:04

Those sales reps have a little bit wider net to cast to bring in some dollars and maybe some different alliances. And again, if you were bought by one of those companies that owns 10 papers and they can shift resources. But that's why, and I know you've had them on your show, I believe, and talked to them,

18:17

but that's why I follow Corey Hutchins' work here in Colorado. the inside the news in Colorado because he does such a great job tracking that behind the scenes on all the media landscape and um I know he could probably answer that question way better than I am but you know it's like our paper was a unique

18:32

situation and I think it was a death by a thousand cuts that was in slow motion and eventually like all right we're belly up we're done so is that like was that what

18:40

happened like so you left in 2023 was that just that was just the shuttering of the paper

18:46

Oh, gosh, no. The management changed over. They ended up during that shrinking contraction period going with like one editor over all the remaining papers, whereas before each one had a person like me in charge. And so that person got spread very thin.

19:03

again that's not a job i ever would have applied for and wanted um but at that point i was sort of given the you know the walk away option or the stick around option and um i had already downsized and started working remote i think in 2019

19:18

and um but i kept the food and drink and i did a little bit of other work for them and i had sort of a part-time and because of the relationship i was even able to keep some benefits which was very gracious and i appreciated that relationship and we kept feeding that relationship

19:30

I carried that into that late 2022, early 2023 era, just doing contract work with them. And at that point, the the long, slow downsizing just turned into a full layoff where the paper is outright closed. Quick, quick update is it has since been bought by new owners.

19:52

new trajectory new staff i don't have a relationship with them i'm not selling them any content i'm not writing for them um and it's funny too when you mentioned my early work there's our archives are completely gone there's no digital record of

20:05

all my work which kind of sucks except when i think about my earliest work and how no one could read how bad that was that's great like i love that like why did you just erase my first few years and then let's get the rest back online

20:16

so it is frustrating i sometimes reach for a link that i want to send because like i oh i did that story like five years ago let me send that to you oh wait i can't and i did save some paper copies of all my most important like full cover stories

20:30

and things that i did a lot of work on i just haven't had time to like scan them and digitize them upload them and even then make them like linkable and all that stuff so it is frustrating like i think i'm sure there are other writers out there

20:39

who can relate like having your 15 years of journalism disappear offline and being accessible kind of sucks and guts you emotionally.

20:50

So in 2023, you leave, you launch a Substack newsletter. What's the name of that newsletter?

20:56

It is called Side Dish with Schnipper.

20:59

And what was your thinking when you launched it? Like, were you thinking this is the next thing or were you just thinking, I'm just launching this as a placeholder? Like what was going through your head at the time?

21:08

Yeah, great question. I, you know, I, the first promise I made myself was it was absolutely not going to be a vanity project or just some sad, sad extension of a career and like, oh, I'll just turn it into a hobby. Like it was like either this thing needs to make money and be a business

21:24

immediately and pay my bills or, you know, It needs, you know, it needs to go away and I'll go back and wait tables or manage or get a new, you know, late, late life career shift in my mid 40s or whatever. So for me, it was like, I, I think I posted something, you know, gracious about like,

21:41

you know, hey, the newspaper just closed and thanks for the many years. And, you know, I'll keep you posted on my next endeavor. And I spent like a few days kind of milling it over like, well, what's next? And then that kind of like,

21:51

panic kind of like blinky-eyed like what do i do now i have all the options in front of me and it wasn't more than a week later that suddenly i was starting a Substack and right back at it and you know my first post to the community was like

22:02

okay so that was a nice break let's get back to work like um i'm going to just keep doing what i was doing in this new place for myself so uh take away the other part of the book you know the arts and the news and all the other stuff like here's just your food and drink.

22:17

If you were ever reading the CS Indie just for me, which we had some of those readers, and you're just a foodie, now you have it here. And I know that that worked well because in the first week I did it, like 500 people signed up to my Substack immediately, which was like a really great immediate audience.

22:33

And I think that was my base. That was my most loyal long-term readers at the paper who were following me well enough to see me post on social and announce the new thing. And come right over. And to me, it was just I tried to not even break my own habits of like even my work week and

22:49

how I work. I was like, well, let's just pretend like deadlines next Thursday. Let's go. Let's not slack off. Let's hold myself accountable in these ways, just like I was in a newsroom. Let's let's. create a layout that's kind of similar to what I'm used to, like in terms of, hey, here's a lead story.

23:05

Here's a second lead story. Here's some little news briefs. Here are the event listings for the week that are food and drink related. And so jumped on design with one of my former newspaper colleagues, helped me out, got a logo up and running, like got all the branding and graphics ready.

23:22

Like it was very fast and it was it was successful, though. I mean, I I didn't necessarily start monetizing immediately, immediately. It took me many months, and we'll get to that in terms of how I finally flipped the table on making real money.

23:35

But I did get that first batch of $5 a month or $50 a year paid subscribers where, okay, now there's a few hundred bucks coming in. Okay, now there's a couple thousand coming in. This is showing signs of growth. Let's see how long it takes to get to real money, if it will. And that's actually...

23:52

yet to happen like it's good like i've got 270 ish paid subscribers right now or 275 maybe um and i'm grateful for every one of those and every dollar i mean to me those are important because it's a vote for someone in the town believes in what

24:05

you do enough to give you five bucks like find me someone else in this town who can get 275 people to give them money uh for anything like i think it's very difficult but as of right now as of today's interview this represents about Close to 14K of revenue. Again, fantastic. Thank you, every one of you.

24:23

But does 14K account for a living wage? No, it does not.

24:27

So you flipped on paid subscriptions right away, even though you weren't locking stuff behind the paywall.

24:33

You know, I played with that. I did a few posts fully paywalled. I did a few posts with that teaser line break with like, you know, join paid. I tried to make a commitment early on that everything eventually would be free to read. And I knew my paywall would be temporary.

24:45

Like I didn't want to put things back there forever. in a way because I didn't want to write things for such a small audience. Like if I write it and I spend my own time on it and put my heart into it, I want people to see it. I want that to have a bigger audience.

24:55

So I didn't want to be writing for 100 people only. And however, even to this day now, my pay model is kind of like, hey, if you come in at that level, you'll get one month early access to those paid pieces.

25:06

So if it is a critical review of a new place in town, you'll be the first to know about it. You could be the first to go and try this food and know what I think about it. You'll be up to speed on it in that like trendier tastemaker kind of way where your

25:17

friends will be asking you, hey, what's new? You'll know because you're following my newsletter. But I struggled with wanting to create too much of an ask, too big of a dollar figure to buy this content. And I don't really have time to... create those separate publications like oh what if i did a brunch dining guide and

25:35

that's paid and you only have that if you come in it paid forever or the like 50 best restaurants and you can only get that like if i had time to produce those separate pieces of content i might think about it i don't i'm just wearing every hat i don't have time for that

25:49

Yeah. And so it sounds like you concluded relatively early on that paid subscriptions would be a part of your revenue mix, but you had to find an alternative business model or another business model to diversify if you wanted to get to something like a full-time living from it.

26:05

Yeah. 100%. And the analogies I gave people that was very food friendly was, this is one piece of the pie. I need to make a whole pie. I need to bake a whole pie here. This one piece is significant. It's great. It's symbolic. It's one of my favorite pieces in the sense that, again,

26:23

it makes me feel so good to know that many people care enough to give that five bucks a month. But yeah, it's just not real bill paying money. So absolutely, after nine months of trying that, I had to try something else.

26:35

And during that nine months, let me be clear, too, I did sell a few ads here and there. You know, a beer festival might place an ad or something like that. Or I approached a few people. But one of the trickiest things right up front there was the conflict of interest piece. Like, OK, well,

26:50

if I go accept someone's money from some food or drink related thing now, how do I write about them in the future? How do I disclose that? They're not buying favoritism. They're not buying any editorial sway. And I don't want to sell too many of those and create so many perceived conflict of interest.

27:04

My ideal advertiser back in the day during that period would have been someone like, let's just say a dentist. Like, hey, you want new people to get their teeth cleaned. I'm going to make their teeth dirty for you with food and drink. They're going to need to get them cleaned every six months.

27:16

Why don't you advertise on my thing and tell people come get them cleaned at your place? That would have been ideal. I just didn't have time to go knock on all those doors and sell it. And the two that I tried were both just like a total disconnect, like,

27:28

no and i think they saw it as like well this is a food and drink letter what does that have to do with me and you're like well i'm trying to explain to you like back in the day in a newspaper all kinds of people advertised they just wanted eyeballs

27:39

on their thing regardless i mean those local people who are eating food also need

27:42

dentists you know they need all the same services haircuts and nail salons like in theory it's totally sellable to them and also in theory you'd be in a better

27:52

position than most local news outlets that have to cover the dentist and all that kind of stuff because You were focused on this narrow thing, and then that means that every other advertiser would get value from advertising with you, and there wouldn't be a conflict of interest at the same time.

28:06

I know. To me, it really comes back down to if I was able to hire a salesperson to go out and sell all that. I think it's doable, but the problem is, okay, then you're paying a salesperson's rep and their commission and this and that.

28:20

and like you'd have to make double you know double salary one for them one for you and like um and again it's a scarce commodity like there's limited space in the scroll so i don't want to inundate it with so many ads uh so to me it was like this

28:33

perfect storm of like well you can't have too many and they can't be this they can't be that um i don't have time to go out and sell i need to be writing and interviewing and reporting and doing that part of the job so i think i found a

28:44

I just decided that the most direct route to dollars was in the industry itself because they are the vested partners who get it right up front. They're like, oh, this newsletter exists and helps us. Like the fact that this exists is good for us. This engages our community with food and drink and keeps them engaged.

29:00

Whereas that doctor, dentist, lawyer or whatever just doesn't see it that way. So, yeah, I had to go right back to the industry, honestly, and that's where it got crafty and tricky and really interesting for me.

29:10

Yeah, and basically what you did, and I've seen other publications, local publications, do a version of this, although slightly different, is you basically sold scarcity. So you're like, and you can elaborate on this, but how I've seen other people do it, other local news outlets, where they say, you are going to be exclusive in this category.

29:31

So there will only be one automobile... uh advertiser there will only be one dentist advertiser and i am selling you exclusivity to be that one advertiser in that one category and basically trying to create the scarcity that would it be make it more enticing than doing like facebook

29:51

ads or google ads and stuff like that so how did you create that scarcity yourself

29:55

For me, it was more about the page layout and that idea of, like, reader behavior, and especially thinking with mobile and scanning on a phone, they're only going to be willing to move through so many ads before they bounce or before they get pissed off and are like, I don't want this ad rag.

30:10

Like, where's the content, right? Like, I'm always worried about giving them too many. So to me, it's like I think the sweet spot is like three or maybe four per newsletter and five if I'm really spreading them out and it's a longer piece, then I think that's about it. That's it.

30:27

There's only so many I can get in here. And now I could create another newsletter that week and then suddenly you've opened up more slots. And so some weeks where I could do that. However, I built my schedule to be one food and drink newsletter per week, usually out on a Thursday or Friday.

30:44

And then I published my little mini reviews or bundles of reviews. And I have thus far chosen not to put any ad money into those whatsoever. So in a way, it's like an untapped resource. Like as I think ahead to the next year, it's like, well, should I start trying to sell into those specifically?

30:58

Like maybe, maybe it's time and you're in this next iteration. My thought though, was just to keep the money away from the criticism as much as possible. And then that way the money is only tied to the food and drink news, which is, just to say, to pick a word, more neutral.

31:14

But there's not so much tone in there. I'm more so telling you about places that are opening or closing or what the chefs are saying. Or I'll do sort of an editorial and give my own insight on like, for example, we were having a problem with the unhoused population in our downtown corridor and the restaurants were

31:28

A lot of problems, you know, crime and perception of customers who are afraid to come in and, you know, all these things are happening. And so I would write a I wrote a think piece about the, you know, talk to all the restaurateurs, talk to the city people like, what do we need to do?

31:42

How do we solve this? How do we do it compassionately for this community? Pieces like that have resonated really well. But anyway, again, that's news that's reporting. It's not the criticism. So, yeah, for me, scarcity is. limited scroll limited space but not so much exclusivity of like automotive versus

32:01

whatever whatever like all my current advertiser sponsors are somehow related to the food and drink industry they've all been drawn in at that level i've really had been not approached by anyone outside of it uh anytime recently that's like hey i just happen to like your newsletter and i'm and i'm a local barber and i want more

32:18

people to cut hair like it just hasn't happened yet

32:21

But when I said scarcity, I meant in the sense of, and correct me if I'm wrong, is you created a special deal with a limited number of advertisers. And so that those advertisers had basically a monopoly on your newsletter and they didn't have to compete with many others. It was just limited to those advertisers.

32:41

yeah thank you sorry uh yes let me clarify that so what i did was um i decided that i would create a group of 12 businesses that was my goal i just said okay a dozen's a good clean number um why don't i go out and find 12 restaurants bars coffee shops

32:59

whoever it is that i feel good about in terms of i like their product they have a strong reputation um it's someone that i could stand behind in terms of vouching for their stuff i'm not saying be a cheerleader i'm not going to use words

33:11

like best and you know superlative language i'm just going to say this is respectable this is good stuff i could stand by this um let me find 12 of them and bring them in and if i can fill those slots at this dollar amount and create what

33:25

would be to me a real salary what i'll give them and i created a like basically like a deliverables package i just said okay well I'll give you a logo in every newsletter, and there's a graphic with everyone's logos together. That's easy, right? I'll give you a listing in every newsletter as well. So 52 times a year,

33:44

you're going to get this little two-sentence thing to tell people, my readers, the foodies of town, what do you got going on this week? So often it's like, you know, trivia on Wednesday and happy hour Thursday, or new winter menu just dropped, here's our, you know, come in and try this such and such, or...

33:59

make your valentine's day reservations now you know whatever it is like it's your space to say whatever you want it's a old school listing so you got your logo you got your listing um you have uh i did a feature month so for each of them they were

34:12

like the takeover that month essentially and what they got was some inline ads and some visual ads so okay in addition to your other stuff now you've got a ad where you can design something out and say you know whatever you want remind them of your hours or your happy hours or your whatever you want

34:26

um and during that month i'll give you a feature story which is not a review not nothing critical but it's more of a profile piece like one of them for example they've been around 60 years so it was much but it was about their legacy their

34:38

history and like the modern era versus the old era things like that um another one it was uh they just bought their building and they have a new investor and they were putting these roots down and they were just you know this theme about like ownership and you know, really like in this,

34:53

this era now where rents are going up and a lot of people are losing their businesses because the landlords are getting greedy. This is someone who owns their building now. So anyway, we'd find that, that, that topic and write about that. I also have a podcast called tap and table. We would give them, some ads on there.

35:08

Or if they didn't want the feature story written, I would give them a tab-a-table episode where they were the subject. We would interview them and we'd sit down and do something. So that was their main list of deliverables. But at the very bottom was the most important.

35:18

When I told them, I said, hey, this is also to a degree brand ambassadorship. Again, I vouch for you. You are one of a very limited number in this newsletter, and you're with another group of people who also look good. These are strong businesses.

35:31

You guys look good together and you can tell people you were chosen by the respected local food critic. Like you were brought in to do this thing. And then I told my readers very overtly and I remind them often, you know, these people, this group of 12,

35:45

pays for journalism for everyone else they are the ones keeping my lights on who stepped up to the plate to keep me alive and doing this work for our community and it's not about me the journalists and oh poor me i need to be at work or something

35:55

it's it's like take myself out of it like i'm just the guy offering to still do this full time for this town a city our size because of the other media has no other full-time food or drink reporter they all have little part-time or contract things the lifestyle magazines do a piece here or there

36:11

Then you've got your influencers doing their videos. Our daily doesn't even have a full-time food and drink department. And the Alt Weekly that's been revived, my old paper, has no food and drink section still. It's been almost a year. So I'm looking around and saying, I'm a city this size, growing this fast, Olympic City, USA,

36:28

that everyone's talking about, that's on these number two and number three lists of best lifestyle quality in the country. I'm the guy like that's what I'm telling people is like if I don't do it, no one's doing it. And it deserves to be done because this is a growing city.

36:43

And we're never going to get that food scene if we don't have a person like me telling their stories and doing this work. So it became about that. It became the appeal was the the altruistic side of serving the community, just like the newspaper serves the reader. I'm trying to still do that.

36:57

But this group underwrites that work for me. And yeah, I mean, the next question which you might throw at me is like, OK, yeah. So how do you do it? Without that same conflict of interest. Right.

37:06

Well, just just to like before we get to that. So like just to kind of summarize what you're saying is like instead of going out and finding 100 advertisers and like have them buying just like little ads throughout the newsletter, you're like,

37:17

I'm going to find 12 and super serve them like give them so much like benefits that like it's going to be really like apparent to them. you know, what you're doing to them. And then they're going to pay kind of like a premium, like, you know, a pretty decent amount so that those 12 people,

37:32

those 12 businesses are paying enough to basically pay you the equivalent of like a full time salary. That's kind of the thesis behind it.

37:40

I'd say so. Yeah. And like, and if I were out selling, if I had a deck in front of me and I was trying to meet with someone, I would say, listen, let's just say I'm going to be $500 a month. You can spend 500 this month on whatever you want. Right.

37:52

Um, you can spend that with me and this group and be one of these members. Um, or you can go buy a quarter page ad in the alt weekly, or you can buy a, eighth of an ad in the daily or you can buy a little bit of tv or radio or you can

38:03

buy some you can pay some influencer to come post a video or two for you or whatever um let's just say using the alt weekly or the daily as an example how many ever readers they say they have let's say they have 30 000 readers or whatever well

38:15

you know from reader behavior they don't all read cover to cover some are there for the sports some are there for the news whatever um so there was never a sure thing that when you placed that ad in that print that it was going to be seen, regardless of what your sales rep told you.

38:31

We all know that. So with me, I said, look, this is a smaller audience. This is a niche nano demographic of true foodies though. They're all here for this one thing. They're not getting distracted by these other sections of the paper, They are here for this and 10% of them are paying to be here for this.

38:48

So if I only give them four ads per issue or less and they have to pass through them to keep reading through the scroll, they're going to see it. At the very least, they're going to see it. Will they click on it and get to your page? I'm not sure.

39:00

will they engage who knows it's harder and harder to get people to do anything i could definitely get in front of their eyeballs with confidence for a better price i believe and my deliverable list if you look at like how much you would spend with

39:11

me as one of these members over the year take that same amount of money and go shop it with those same amount of media i just mentioned Look at your deliverables. How do you feel about who you're engaging? I can at least get you to the people who eat out often and who are going to go to

39:27

those independent restaurants and try the special, not just the spaghetti and meatballs every Thursday, like curious people who want to extend their palate, you know.

39:34

Yeah, and I think that's a great value proposition and it's a great way for you to differentiate what you can do versus what they can get on Google Ads or Facebook and stuff like that. You can offer that super bespoke engagement that they're not going to get anywhere else. So you talked about the conflict of interest.

39:53

So what was your thinking through there?

39:55

yeah i mean i initially obsessed on it i wasn't sure i would move forward like i i actually approached three different mentors for lack of a better term and ran it by him and said hey and this included former colleagues as well as corey who i

40:08

mentioned he teaches a journalism class here and i've been to speak to his students a couple times and um i just i respect his viewpoint of it i know he has his head around the ethical side of it and i know that like the media landscape's changing,

40:22

and so a lot of those old-school ethical decisions are a little bit different now. Like, it's a different conversation than it used to be, but I just made sure that as I ran it by each person that I felt good about the, like, it has to have integrity, it has to have authenticity,

40:36

I can't have my readers thinking or believing that I'm sold out or that my opinion is available for sale. It's not. It's just that, like, I needed to... use this small group of people to underwrite the whole thing and put them in this special category in a way, like take their chess pieces off the board and say,

40:53

yeah, you're gonna hear from them. You're gonna see their listing every week. You're gonna read a little profile about them. But other than that, you know they're off the table for getting secret reviewed next week. It's not gonna happen. So basically it was just making sure people understood that they're in a very

41:05

special category and that they made the whole thing possible. And that like, I couldn't tiptoe around it. I just had to go straight at it and say, With full transparency, yes, I'm working inside of the industry here a little bit. However, you have my commitment or my word, dear reader,

41:24

I'm not going to violate that in some way and start being shady and say that their pizza is the greatest pizza in the entire world. You'll know, you'll see right through it. You'll think I'm a hack. And so I just had to make sure... the believability was there, again, the authenticity.

41:40

And I think I overcame that hurdle fairly quickly. And some of the people I talked to were like, dude, you're fine. Like Corey kind of put me in this new realm of entrepreneurial journalism. He's like, you know, that's what I came to talk to his students about.

41:52

And so leaving it all weekly, going into this new sub stack, a platform and then you know more that entrepreneurial hat the single person doing all the jobs or whatever so i think that's where it gives that leeway to have that ethical conversation and say well yes old school rules this is not the separation

42:10

of church and state we would have preferred back in inside of a media house or a newsroom however when you're the writer and the editor and the salesperson and the marketing and the social and all the things i do i can't have a split personality and cut myself in two so yeah you know i mean it's

42:25

a difficult conundrum for all like independent creators but i kind of think like given how diversified our media is now with social media and like yelp and stuff like that there's always checks on it like let's say you let's say you did succumb to the conflict of interest and you started giving rave reviews to some restaurant

42:40

but they were actually really horrible Like people will write about that on like social media. They'll give bad Yelp reviews and stuff like that. Like, I think we just have to kind of like, I think creators should be as ethical as possible. They should disclose when possible and try to avoid conflicts of interest.

42:55

But like, it's not going to be completely, you know, 100% possible, and then we just have to hope that beyond them being as ethical as possible, whatever ways that they're swayed are at least balanced out by the crowd, because it's not like those restaurants could pay off every Yelp reviewer and everything like that,

43:13

and there will always be some kind of independent checks on... you know quality and stuff like that i i i think is kind of my feeling on it um yeah so you charge 500 a month to 12 so it's like around 70 000 a year i think when

43:26

we last talked uh on the phone you were just a few months in i think you're probably closing in on the year mark if you haven't passed it already what feedback have you gotten from those advertisers in terms of the roi that you're driving for them

43:39

yeah that's a great question um you know it's fine i didn't i didn't ask him for direct metrics i don't think a lot of it's one-to-one trackable um you know if someone had reported that they saw it in my newsletter and came out to eat they

43:51

would be able to say oh yeah that was tonight's dollars but they a lot of them have not been able to to do that i think they're just getting an overall sense of it's working or it's not working and not all of them are here for that old school like dollar for dollar exchange,

44:04

a couple of them really do want to support the mission as well. And they're here just like with that community sense of like, yeah, this is important. We want to be part of it. And I do know, though, for example, in a recent newsletter,

44:16

I wrote about a place that just opened and they were there on day one, two and three. greeting and inviting people in. And every single person, they said, how'd you hear about us? How'd you hear about us? And I was one of about six or seven people there for the media preview a couple days prior,

44:29

which included major media, more influencers, and whatever. Anyway, I just talked to that guy yesterday. everyone like almost everybody said they were there for your newsletter like we heard more people say side dish than anything else like we know we know this works

44:42

we know you have an audience so I've heard that on that side now that was not one of my current sponsors but um but anyway so I've gotten that kind of testimonial level but um I will say like out of the 12 from my 2024 batch which I'm about to

44:55

roll over into my 2025 year because my calendar year started in March this just happened to be when I launched it so about a month out from that So far I have 8 of 12 already committed to return. That's pretty good. That's a good renewal rate. Absolutely.

45:08

And actually it might even be as high as 10 or 11. I'm waiting on those last few to finish getting back to me. I've got two on deck to replace anyone who leaves, so they're committing to those spots. And I have some other interest where it's like I've just put them on the back burner.

45:24

Like if I don't need to have that meeting, I need to save that time. I'm just not going to have that meeting. But if I need to, there's a couple more people I can reach out to. But even getting higher than a 50 percent return rate in year one, I do think significant.

45:35

And it was very validating to me. I was very grateful to those sponsors, but also like. yeah like i have to be doing something right for them to come back this has to be working in some capacity whether it's traceable down to that how many people did

45:47

you bring in last week to my dining room um i think they're liking some of the other ancillary benefits um i mean at the very least we're getting their logo in front of eyeballs every week with consistency such that if you think about those

46:00

like it takes six seven times to hear something before you take action from the marketing side of it like next time someone says hey i got friends coming in town they like italian food where should we go Oh, got it. Red gravy. Why red gravy? Oh, because I see it every week in his newsletter.

46:15

And either we like it and we already know that or we haven't tried it and it's time to go try it. But like I believe in that kind of like somewhat stickiness of just like constantly throwing it in front of their face. And so I think there's a value in that.

46:28

If they haven't come in to take action yet, they might soon. We don't know. But like I just if anyone asks, I just tell them to be patient, like, you know, this stuff's not one to one trackable. But it's just an overall global sense of like, how is it going?

46:40

And they've also done some pretty cool collaborations like I've set the coffee shop up with the pastry. So now that coffee shop is selling their pastries. And so it's a win win for both of them. And we've done some events together where three or four of us have shown up and displayed together at like a

46:56

Taste of Pike's Peak event where we were all doing like, you know, exhibits for the town and stuff. So when we represent together, we look even better. And so I've tried to create like a sense of this unique, like a little bit of like a clubhouse vibe, like, hey, we're this cool little group hanging out.

47:10

And the more we behave that way creates that exclusivity feeling, which is like the somewhere close to that scarcity concept, you know, like it's exclusive. It's elite. Not everyone gets to be in and do this stuff like it's just our crew. So.

47:23

Yeah. Well, how do you interact with your audience? How often are you doing events? How often are you trying to get your audience together? Have you tried doing dinner clubs? What's your kind of interaction with your audience like?

47:37

Yeah, and that's when I failed to mention it. So my list of deliverables to them was also during your feature month, I want to come do a pop-up with you at your place, whatever it is, and we co-create it. So at the brewery, for example, I went and was a guest beer tender for the night.

47:50

So I was pouring everyone's beers and I was behind the counter interacting with But we had specials and stuff going on in the tap house. So I do this monthly. I try to do consistently. When I can, I'll do third Thursdays and get people remembering that. I encourage each of these sponsors,

48:06

when it's their feature month and their event time, to come up with something that's unique that invites people in to show them what they do. So let's not do something that's really wacky that you don't normally do. Let's do what you do regularly and show them that so that's what they can come back

48:19

to and have an experience with. For example, this one upcoming next month, they want me to come in and just do their Sunday happy hour all day. There's already great deals in terms of getting people out. There's cheap margaritas and good tacos and all that.

48:34

They just want to bring people in at that time to say, hey, take advantage of these happy hours. Parking's free on Sundays. The parking lot's right there. You can get this, this, and this today. It's only going to cost you that.

48:44

While you're here, let me show you this other business that's adjacent to us that we also own. So it's like, let's get eyeballs to your space. Either there are people who maybe love it and haven't been back in a while and just need to be reminded they should come back in more often,

48:56

or maybe they are totally new people. And that's the benefit is at these events, I've seen people that had not been to a place and thanked me and said, oh, you know, this is cool. Like, I know this place has been here. I've just never been in. So thanks for giving me a reason to come by.

49:09

What I've enjoyed about it, too, is it's access for my readers. I've got, I'm closing in on, I'm like just a few people shy of 3,000 subscribers right now. And out of those 3,000, there's hundreds and hundreds I've never met, don't know in person, they follow me. I've had many of them show up and introduce themselves.

49:26

And so they'll come to my event and say, hey, I'm so-and-so, beginning your newsletter, love it. I used to read you at the end, love it. And I'm like, this is awesome. I finally get to meet someone face-to-face that's had a relationship with me I never knew about.

49:36

for all these years that I can actually ask a question to and say, hey, what's your favorite place? Where should I go that I haven't talked about in a while? Or do you know of somewhere new that I've missed so far that I should go to in your neighborhood? And so creating that access point, just being available.

49:52

Not every writer, I think, is out from behind their desk in the community so much. And I think in my role, being seen in the community is important. And I think being available or at least having that touch point on a monthly basis, they know they can call, they know they can email,

50:05

they can comment on my posts, but it's different when you can show up and grab a beer with me in person and chat and like actually get my attention and say, have a five or 10 minute conversation. So those have been useful. And again, I think it's just part of establishing a community together, myself, my sponsors,

50:21

their readers, their patrons. And I feel like hopefully all these add up. That's just one more element of all this that adds more value to the sponsor and to the reader. And so there's all those reflexives I can point to. It's good for you. It's good for me. It's good for them. Great. It's good for everybody.

50:40

So a lot of food criticism has moved to short form video like TikTok and Instagram, which makes sense because like food is a very visual. It's not just taste. It's like very visual and it does well, that kind of stuff. What was your like,

50:54

did you ever kind of feel that did you ever contemplate whether you wanted to start really getting into that and kind of like even the early food bloggers, a lot of them moved on to TikTok and stuff like that. Like what was your kind of relationship to that or did you like resist it?

51:09

I kind of have resisted. I do it on my social a little bit and only when I have time. So when I have my druthers, I will post more reels or still images from my reviews, just like my pretty food shots and stuff, then do video and moving picture. I've done a couple,

51:24

but I've noticed when I look at my own backend metrics, they don't track much differently. Like if I was seeing multiples, more audience engagement or insights on my Instagram post or Facebook, I would be more inclined to do more of those, but they actually, I'm just not fast at it yet.

51:40

Like I tried using like CapCut and some of the backend third-party software to do more professional editing and they just take so much time. And even yesterday on Instagram, I did one and I was like, I didn't check my watch, but I probably spent more than half an hour

51:53

for a two minute video just to get the voiceover just right. And the video just edited where I wanted to. And like, I just don't think the ROI is there for me in my time right now. Not that I don't love, like I was a film minor in college and I did a creative writing major, but like,

52:07

I love that if I had all the time in the world to do it, I would do more of it. Or I would, we are talking about turning our podcast more into a, mini show segments like going out in the community and filming more foodie things

52:18

that are sexy and and then doing quick voiceover instead of having a 30 minute sit down talking thing so we might accomplish that on the podcast side but i've also heard from my readers that like what i still do that the the other media has gotten

52:31

away from because of that axios model and the short brevity and everything is i'm still doing long form much like you are in a lot of ways i see your poster have a lot of depth to them there's a lot of meat there to chew on and So many of these posts now are getting really lean,

52:43

bullet points, pictures, and headlines, and that's it. And I know Axios is convinced that's what people have attention span for. And I get it that that's a big part of the demographic does have attention span. But I know that my old school readers who came from the Alt Weekly was with me love that cover story,

53:00

much like the New York Times Sunday read or whatever. There are people who still will reward the long form. And when I say long form, I'm not talking about my 6,000-word cover stories anymore. I guess I'm talking about the 1,200-word story. food post which is still long by today's standards so yeah and uh does substack

53:16

help you like through its platform through growth or anything like that like i know like my publication and a lot of national publications they get like a lot of you know internal signups through the app and through like recommendations and stuff like that but i don't get a sense that that really helps like local publications

53:32

what's your read on that then

53:34

Yeah, I think you're right on that. I've gotten better referrals through other regional sub-stackers. So, for example, last week, I know one of the food writers in the Denver and Boulder scene, and she and I interacted at one of the Restaurant Association events not too long ago.

53:51

She started a Substack just recently and she started recommending my newsletter. And within a week or so, I had another 40, 50 people just from her. And I was surprised because they're in the Denver market again. They're an hour away. And I'm like, why do you even care about the Springs?

54:06

Like there's enough distance between us that like this isn't even your town. Like, what are you here for? But then I'm also realizing, well, the true foodies are willing to drive that distance on a weekend. And maybe they're thinking of it as like, well, let's get to know of that sister city, like what's down there.

54:19

Let's stay in touch with this guy or let's just compare our market to this guy. Or we just love food stuff no matter where it is. We watch the TV here. We do this chef show there. I know they're those kind of readers. So anyway, I've gotten referrals from other sub stackers locally, regionally. That's been helpful.

54:34

I've never had any other bigger referrals. Substack assistance, let's say from the platform itself. I've found the best value is after I publish and it's gone out to my paid people and my free people and like that's out there in the world. I do what I used to do with the paper,

54:50

which is like the next important step is to cut all that up into pieces. and put it on socials and send it out for the next few days on different platforms at different places at different times teasing individual components and if i can get them back to the full newsletter with that tease maybe they'll stick around and

55:06

maybe they'll click that blue subscribe button and sometimes it works where like i can track a post does well on facebook and one of our local foodie groups and suddenly i'll get a little pop of subscribers that day and then you As you know, when you see, like, how do they come in?

55:20

It's either Facebook, Instagram, Post Footer, CSA, whatever. Like, so I've tracked, like, the social has more of a payoff consistently for me, but that's another hat I wear as the social guy having to repost all this stuff and chop it all up. So if I made a hire in 2025,

55:35

it would be probably a part-time helper to do that for me, to take every newsletter, slice and dice it, do all these things, do it better than I do because you have a little more time to do it that I'll pay you for.

55:44

I think that's where the best bang for the buck is for local people like me to grow. And the Facebook food groups have been huge for that. Other Facebook groups, I'm sure, there's people who do automotive interests or the pet groups for people who like to go to the dog park or whatever. But

56:01

There's three good groups here that are foodie driven. And actually, I'm admin over one of them because during the pandemic, we started it to help support restaurants when they were struggling and it just kept going. So we kept it going. And so and I'm transparent about that, too.

56:14

Like, hey, you know me over here is your food writer and over here is this. Well, on this page, this is actually like a positive platform. Like we didn't put negative views on here during the pandemic. We were trying to support people. And then people loved that, so we just kept doing it.

56:25

So it's like a neutral to positive page where it's more food news and a Facebook platform, and that's been helpful as a driver too.

56:32

So there's a burgeoning local news startup scene that's kind of starting to slowly fill in the gaps from retrenched newspapers. And a lot of them look like what you're doing. It's literally just one or two people running a newsletter or something like that, or sometimes it's a TikTok or whatever. But they have really limited resources,

56:53

and it's hard to monetize when you're in a town or a small city or something like that. Do you think some of the things that you learned about, you have limited resources, I'm just going to go after a few advertisers and try to super serve them.

57:10

Do you think that this model can be copied and utilized in other markets, not just in food, but in more general local news and stuff like that?

57:19

I do think so. I think that's where Substack's great. For all the journalists who left newsrooms and were laid off, and we're talking, I think tens of thousands, right? I used to track those over the national conferences we would go to and stuff.

57:35

let's just say tens of thousands of people in the last decade or so left newsrooms a lot of them went into pr and marketing and media and other things those who wanted to stay who do something like this i mean i think the model is definitely

57:48

there for like let's say you were the best music writer of your town whatever city you're in if you can capture those same people who were reading your music column and then you keep doing the same thing. You've got your music listings where all the clubs music for the week.

58:03

You've got your little coffee shop listings for the little local stuff. You've got interviews with big bands touring through all the stuff you would have done at the newspaper. I absolutely think there's a market for that. And if anything, we're taking the I don't know, not take the power back,

58:19

but it's more like if the model doesn't work anymore for mass media, like these big mothership places that are so heavy and the model doesn't work anymore, it's broken, and those advertisers aren't there like we talked about, and you can simplify it,

58:32

and then you have the writer on their own doing the thing they do well in a niche audience, maybe there'll be some resurgence in future years where someone comes and swoops them up and puts those together and assembles them in a place again or something but I'd be

58:44

reluctant to ever go back in house with that kind of thing I'd be more like well you can buy from me and keep that but I'm more secure working for myself now and so yeah like I can only assume if I could do it in a city this size I would think it

58:56

could be done in any city this size or larger which is probably a lot of American cities like I said I'm half a million ish so I There's got to be a way forward for this, especially for anywhere that had a vibrant alt weekly at any point in time in their recent history. Definitely.

59:11

And even probably like when you're talking about New York size, it's probably down to the neighborhood level, the boroughs and stuff like I'm sure over here you could have a music writer that's doing something completely different over here. Probably same thing in Atlanta. So, yeah, I mean. I think this is the new landscape.

59:25

Entrepreneurial journalists revived in their own platforms, whether that's Substack or another one, going direct to audience, direct mail, figure out your own advertising base, keep it lean. Maybe you're always going to be a one-man person. Maybe you have one or two little hires here or there.

59:40

But we aren't trying to create the next newspaper or a whole media company. Like, hell no. It's not viable. Like, just do you.

59:49

Okay, Matthew. Well, those are all the questions I have for you. Where can people find you online?

59:53

If you just Google Side Dish Schnipper, it's S-C-H-N-I-P-E-R, it will pop up immediately. Or Side Dish Colorado Springs if you're in another market. And, yeah, you'll get right to my Substack or Insta or Facebook. And I'll be the first to say I don't know why you would want to subscribe if you're in another state because, you know,

1:00:09

I don't have something for you. It's Colorado Springs. But we are a great place to visit. So if you're ever thinking about visiting and you want to get ahead of it and, like, plan out your eating when you're here, maybe subscribe for that reason and check it out.

1:00:21

Awesome. Well, it was a lot of fun. Thanks for joining me.

1:00:23

Thank you. Appreciate it.